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| michaeluna |
 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:54 pm |
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Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Chicago
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Hey everybody. I just scored a nice n' cheap Yamaha TX-7 on ebay.
I'm wondering, does anyone here have experience programming voices for the Yamaha DX-7 or any other FM-synthesis engines? I'm waiting for it to arrive and in the meantime I've been reading the user manual and documentation, and some people's websites.
Fm synthesis seems kinda weird and non-intuitive. I'm sure it will all make a lot more sense once I get it plugged in to FM Alive's DX-Manager and get audio feedback from parameter changes, but just looking at the user interface seems like straight-up numerical nonsense.
*FYI, I'm going to be controlling it by bass guitar via TSAudioToMIDI, which was very kindly pointed out to me on these forums. I know some people here have been asking about/experimenting with guitar-to-MIDI control, and in my opinion, TSAudioToMIDI is an excellent, cheap solution. The program has a 30-day trial period, and I recommend you try it out if you're into that sort of thing. The license is only $15, which is ridiculously cheap for such an awesome, well-functioning program.
I'm running out via USB to a MIDI converter, then to the synth. Latency is in the 15-millisecond range, which is doable if I stick to slower-attack sounds and pad-type voices, or slower tempos. |
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| atomic_afro |
| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:52 pm |
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Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Bellingham, WA (Home of Edirol USA!)
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I would start by playing around with software FM synths, as they typically have easier patch editing/creation.
Here's some good free ones to start with:
Hexter (Win/Linux)
Vivaldi MX & Ganymed (Win/OS9)
Oxe FM Synth (Win)
I'm not aware of a freeware OSX FM synth, but I'm sure there's one out there...
The trick is to start slow with a simple 2 OSC FM configuration. Basically, instead of an analog filter, the change in sound comes from changing the amount of modulation signal sent to the carrier. In other words, a modualtion operator at max output is roughly the same as a VA with its LPF all the way open. At no output, the resulting wave would be a sine (or some other waveform if selected). So setting an envelope to affect the modulation operator's volume would have an effect similar to that of a filter envelope.
Adding additional modulators in serial can have a subtle effect, helping to create a richer overall sound. Or, if set too high can create a jumbled output similar to white noise (good for FM percussion, bad for most other patches). Adding in parallel would be like layering OSCs in your typical VA. So if two carrier operators are in parallel, one slightly detuned from the other, a "fat" chorusing effect would occour.
Beyond that, it's a lot of trial and error. Although FM synths have alot of ideas in common with VAs, they can produce a range of wildly different (many times unusable) sounds. So it's best to stay conservative in sound design until you can understand the nature of how the operators interact with one another. |
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| herr_prof |
| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:35 pm |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 70
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| there are tons of cool fm synth editors you can use via Steem, the atarist emu |
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Peter Swimm
toilville.com |
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| michaeluna |
| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:59 pm |
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Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Chicago
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| Awesome, Afro. Thanks for those VST's. I think I'm getting it. I know the DX-7's interface is totally different than the VSTs (i.e. kinda crappy) but I'm excited about the kind of sounds available. Listening to the patches and demos people have posted online was kinda starting to make me think I was on a one-way ticket to Cheese City, but I don't think that'll happen anytime soon. |
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| thesimplicity |
| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:04 am |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 122
Location: Tucson, AZ
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michaeluna wrote:
*FYI, I'm going to be controlling it by bass guitar via TSAudioToMIDI, which was very kindly pointed out to me on these forums.  |
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| PeterKirn |
| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:05 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 822
Location: New York, NY
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This looks like a real blast!
I was delighted to see a couple of mint-condition DX-7s in the lab I'm teaching in at Brooklyn College. It's funny, because the general attitude from people I talked to was "oh, yeah, there are some synths -- but I'd rather have students using the computer as the instrument" (meaning Max/MSP). And here I am, the software guy, and I'm more psyched to have something hardware.
It's been a while since I programmed a Yamaha synth, though, so I hope it comes back to me. You may ... erm ... see some results here on CDM!
There also must be some good used books on the DX-7. I think I largely skipped over FM in my book, just for space requirements, but Jim Aikin has a good section in his book:
http://www.amazon.com/Power-Tools-Synthesizer-Programming-Reference/dp/0879307730
(actually, probably far better than anything on the Yamaha specifically!)
Practically speaking, I'll also echo what Afro says and start with 2 oscillators. There's a reason many plug-ins only use a 2-oscillator configuration: it gives you the bulk of the FM sounds. I talked to the folks at Ableton about this a lot in regards to Operator which is also a great FM synth, and their approach was to limit things to four oscillators as that's generally where the sound payoff starts to bottom out. It's also worth noting that Robert's design for Operator focuses on simple tuning and level controls -- you should focus on these with your operators and do the basics first.
I think FM synthesis has been unfairly mystified. It's possible to create some really beautiful sounds. Like anything else, the thing is just to get your hands dirty, and FM far more than subtractive is capable of lots of happy accidents (which to me is part of the fun of patch design).
My fave Yamaha is the TG-77, but the TX-7 should still be a good starter FM synth.
Please let us know how this goes ... and we can start a vintage Yamaha YouTube tag. |
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| michaeluna |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:01 pm |
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Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Chicago
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Simplicity-I was looking into the GK-2B and everything I read seemed to indicate that it wouldn't actually transmit MIDI note data, only program change signals. Are you using the Roland bass MIDI brain thing, or a different interface? Because the pickup signal needs a translator, right? Anyway, it's pretty funny that we're doing similar things. What city do you live in? We should play a show together.
I got the TX-7 on Friday and played with it all day Saturday. It's as awesome as I wanted it to be, and the system response times are now almost nil. I found some archives of sound patches and have started to play around with modifying them and creating my own sounds.Thanks to everyone on this thread!
Look for a youtube link soon. |
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| thesimplicity |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:41 pm |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 122
Location: Tucson, AZ
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michaeluna wrote: Simplicity-I was looking into the GK-2B and everything I read seemed to indicate that it wouldn't actually transmit MIDI note data, only program change signals. Are you using the Roland bass MIDI brain thing, or a different interface? Because the pickup signal needs a translator, right? Anyway, it's pretty funny that we're doing similar things. What city do you live in? We should play a show together.
To get MIDI out of the GK-2B you need a GI-20. It kind of sucks that there's no all-in-one solution... and the GI-20 isn't exactly cheap. I don't even own the one I have, I've been borrowing it from a friend for almost a year now. I'd be a better solution if the GK connection was an open standard with tons of companies behind it... imagine if most USB controllers came with a GK port built in. Or if every stringed instrument had a GK pickup for it... violins, charangos, bandolins... I'd finally be able to start that Andean synth-pop band I've always dreamed of! |
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| Remedial |
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:09 am |
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 2
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Hi. Newbie here. Just wondering, would you recommend this book for someone who has a basic understanding of the components of a synthesizer (oscillators, lfo's, filter, etc...) but would like to reign all of those in and put them to use developing their own patches. Now, I'm not really looking for something that's going to say: Okay, an organ patch goes like such and such (though that would be great also). But rather something that will give me the tools needed to make my own unique sounds.
Thanks. |
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| PeterKirn |
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:02 pm |
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Site Admin
Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 822
Location: New York, NY
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Hi Remedial,
Yes, Jim's book will definitely do that for you. If you want a general reference that covers other topics as well in a way that gives you all the basics, there's also my book -- realworlddigitalaudio.com. Jim was my technical editor, so he had a lot to do with the synthesis chapter.  I'm using my book in the course I'm teaching now since it also covers MIDI in depth, the fundamentals of sound, and so on. If I get my act together, I should also have a set of tutorials for synthesis in Max/MSP by the time the course is done.
Peter |
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| Remedial |
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:02 pm |
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 2
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PeterKirn wrote: Hi Remedial,
Yes, Jim's book will definitely do that for you. If you want a general reference that covers other topics as well in a way that gives you all the basics, there's also my book -- realworlddigitalaudio.com. Jim was my technical editor, so he had a lot to do with the synthesis chapter. I'm using my book in the course I'm teaching now since it also covers MIDI in depth, the fundamentals of sound, and so on. If I get my act together, I should also have a set of tutorials for synthesis in Max/MSP by the time the course is done.
Peter
Thanks Peter. I was considering Jim's book and Peter Georges' Programming Synthesizers text. I've used his Sound Forum synth (along with his brief tut from Keyboard Magazine back in like 2000 or 2001) before and it was a great tool for intro synth programming.
I might get both.
P.S. I love the site. Informative without the fluff and bias. |
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